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straight through the flames and scattering debris of his victim: Just as I passed him I saw a sheet of so Mustang would've been blown to bits! (f-106deltadart.com). I saw a crash and a puff of black smoke. In terms of design, both planes had sleek, aerodynamic shapes that made them fast and agile. Not only did it blow past the competition, literally (with a top speed of 190 kilometers per hour faster than the North American P-51 Mustang), but it also gave the faltering German Luftwaffe a brief moment of superiority that they hadnt experienced in quite some time. To confront the bombers and fighters, Jagdgeschwader 7 (Fighter Group 7) Nowotny, launched 30 Messerschmitt Me 262s from Brandenburg Briest near Berlin. As a result, Me 262 pilots were relatively safe from the Allied fighters, as long as they did not allow themselves to get drawn into low-speed turning contests and saved their maneuvering for higher speeds. November 1940 . NA P-51 Mustang vs FW 190 Butcherbird Altitude = 25,000 feet61 5.10 Attrition of the Luftwaffe Fighter Force in Early 194463 . Welcome to the WWII Forums! Oberfahnrich Russel. 1:08. Feb 1, 2010 Thread starter #7 Zniperguy114 Airman 67 0 The renowned fighter ace of World War II, General Adolf Galland took his first flight in a Messerschmitt Me262 in ay of 1943. US F-51 pilots trained against US jets and mentioned that scoring a hit on a MiG-15 would be very difficult: had more drag caused by stub fuselage for its cockpit. March 1945 off the Frankfurt Autobahn. (C) 4 x 20mm Hispano cannons in wings. The British Hawker Tempest scored several kills against the new German jets, including the Messerschmitt Me 262. On 25 February 1945, Mustangs of the 55th Fighter Group surprised an entire Staffel of Me 262As at takeoff and destroyed six jets. All rights reserved. I saw flames burst from the jet orifices of the enemy aircraft. Just one solo German jet attacking, My research for 8th AF only has ~ 100 Me 262's Awarded (independent of either claims or actual) by 8th AF FC. real photo of P-51 with ram-jets (but in 1946 after WWII). Browse more videos. Yeager was one of four double aces, taking down the ME-262 as it landed perhaps not "sporting," he acknowledged, but one sure-fire way to drop the revolutionary jet. Warning: some page functionalities could not work due to your privacy choices, Google Analytics (GA4) is a web analytics service provided by Google Ireland Limited (Google). flying 170 missions in a P-51 Mustang, a piston-engine plane in which Messerschmitt Bf 109: Country: Germany: Germany: Type of aircraft: Fighter: MR Fighter: First Flight: 1939: 1935: Introduction: 1941: 1937: Crew: 1: 1: Number built: 20000: . Spitfire had same engine, but despite being smaller, was slower than Mustang. Luftwaffe fighter arms nemesis. Thunderbolts could keep flying after sustaining damage that would've destroyed any other fighter. I remember interviewing Roscoe Brown for a chapter I was writing about Benjamin Davis, Jr.for my book FIRST COMMAND. Within seconds, his Me 262 began vibrating violently as the tail was buffeted back and forth. The Messerschmitt Me 262 was the world's first fully operational turbojet fighter and saw service in the later years of World War Two. In terms of speed, the Me 262 had a significant advantage it reached speeds of up to 702 Mph, making it the first operational jet fighter in history. 4 x 30mm MK 108 Cannons. Google uses the Personal Data collected to track and examine the use of this Application, compile reports on its activities and share them with other services developed by Google. > Gloster Meteors of 77 Squadron RA. Actually, lack of trained pilots and fuel was more of a problem than airworthy Me-262s. The form of anonymisation is no longer acceptable. Why did few French and no Dutch pilots (but many Poles and Czechs) take part in the Battle of Britain? kill while flying in his piston-engine F-51D Mustang named Buckeye Ah, the age-old question. Messerschmitt ME 262 - Die Wartung . janua genova. Ziegler's book describes But at 400+MPH, a Spitfire's controls stiffened and its maneuverability decreased substantially, The Me 262, on the other hand, was designed as a multi-role aircraft and could be used for various tasks such as air combat, ground attack, and even intercepting flying bombs. P-51 Mustang vs. Messerschmitt Me-262 - Which WWII fighter was better? The other jet aircraft was about 500 yards ahead of me and had started FW-190 had an engine as powerful as P-47 Thunderbolt but was sleeker and smaller. Get the best aviation news, stories and features from The Aviation Geek Club in our newsletter, delivered straight to your inbox. The P51s iconic design features sleek lines and a distinctive shark mouth painted on the nose, making it truly stand out among its contemporaries. I Gruppe of KG51 was the first fighter bomber unit equipped with the Me 262 in autumn of 1944. from performing well on bomber escort missions and engaging the Luftwaffe. Welcome to WWII Forums! However, the initial prototypes did not meet performance expectations. Not sure about the actual numbers, but I read Pierre Clostermann's Big Show and the RAF had a specific tactic of using Tempests to catch ME262s returning to base. Today, it remains a beloved plane among aviation enthusiasts and war history buffs. Main difference was size: Spitfire small, Mustang large. an equal footing, despite the differences in powerplant and top speed. Coast Air Museum in Santa Rosa and an old friend of Col. Rogers. Me-609, (arlingtoncemetry.net)] Its higher speed and range resulted from its laminar-flow wings, In most cases, the Spitfire had better performance as an all-purpose fighter. This hybrid combination proved successful as the Mustang became one of the best fighters on both sides of the Atlantic and helped turn the tide in favor of the Allies during World War II. Though they have some similarities, there are also several key differences between these two planes. I know I tend to sometimes have leading questions and I would not criticize someone for elaborating on it. [ref: Pilot Training Manual for the P-51 Mustang] One of Browns fellow airmen, Capt. Note that he wearing a promotional hat for the movie Red Tails which incorporated his story. keep a close eye on the attacking enemy fighter and make an abrupt, So 158 Me262's were shot down in the air by fighters, and of these between 60 and 74 % were P-51 Mustangs. OPTIONAL: The best answers are voted up and rise to the top, Not the answer you're looking for? The German Luftwaffe Messerschmitt Me 262 Schwalbe (Swallow) was the first operational jet fighter and appeared in air combat towards the end of World War Two. Enemy jets forced to stay away, ironically, was goal of escorting Mustangs. The ace shot down a four-engined bomber and a P-51 for his 257th ", "He [Col. Joseph Rogers] more than made up for his lack of combat in the Korean War -- Books researched for this webpage, whose authors researched official combat records, As you can imagine, that was a scary sight as Me 262s were kept top secret and until then not many . The words of general Ion Dobran, a former Romanian Bf . over 500 alone are accredited to JG 7 but that is too high. The P-51 has a more traditional look with its straight wings and boxy shape. It may not display this or other websites correctly. 8 minutes read. The Messerschmitt Me 163 Komet was a German rocket-powered fighter aircraft. After a brief clash between the Americans and other Me 262s that had no result, ten-kill air ace Oberleutnant (Lt. Col.) Franz Kulp flew straight at Brown. Project P.1065. Misunderstandings about Twin Mustang was it Faircount Media Group. wasn't surpassed until advent of jet fighters like F-86 and MiG-15. B-17s didn't have door gunners. This title explores the formidable Me 262 and P-51 Mustang, two planes which represented the state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance, and combat capability for their respective air forces. Wrote Brown in his after-action report: I pulled up at him in a fifteen degree climb and fired three long bursts at him from 2,000 feet at eight oclock to him. Also the RAF Thunderbolts never suffered an air to air loss, but fighter oppositoin was limited. More information in Terms and rules. only P-51 Mustang fighter pilot to shoot down a MiG 15. You might also like. My way being that the P-51 is probaly in the top five piston fighter aircraft in history, and yes, that is also an opinion, But the Me 262 is the first, truely sucessful jet ever. View the Cookie Policy. Ambs bailed out at 17,000 feet and came to rest entangled in the branches of a tree. Browse more videos. Willard Millikan) 1944 Aluminium, Black, White, Red. 4 x 30mm MK 108 Cannons. firing from about 400 yards, with 30 degrees deflection. The Messerschmitt Me 262, nicknamed Schwalbe (German: "Swallow") in fighter versions, or Sturmvogel (German: "Storm Bird") in fighter-bomber versions, is a fighter aircraft and fighter-bomber that was designed and produced by the German aircraft manufacturer Messerschmitt.It was the world's first operational jet-powered fighter aircraft.. The P-51 had a well-designed cockpit that was comfortable for the pilot and provided good visibility. But which fighter was better? the concrete taxiways, one of Eders Jumo engines suffered a flame-out and he The first jet kill by a Mustang was on October 7, 1944, when Lt. Urban L. Dreq of the 361st Fighter Group shot down two Me 262s while they were taking off from their base. The Schwalbe (German: " Swallow ") fighter version of the Messerschmitt Me 262 was the first operational jet-powered fighter aircraft, with the first test unit having been formed on 19 April, 1944 as documented in the Operational History section of the Wiki article cited. Red Tails- P-51 Mustang vs Messerschmitt Me 262. To complement this, I will focus on contemporaries that saw action during Korea. [ref: Flying to the Limit by Peter Caygill] v ABSTRACT The purposes of this study were to trace the evolution of the North American P-51 Mustang as an escort fighter in World War Two and to enumerate the reasons why it played . Brantley outmaneuvered his adversary and poured rounds of fire into the jet fighter that killed its accomplished ace pilot, Oberleutnant (Lt. Col.) Ernst Wrner. 4 x 12.7mm machine guns in wingsP-51D: 6 x .50 cal machine guns in wings. This is due to the tremendous speed of the enemy aircraft.. Drew claimed, and despite the failure of his gun camera to record the action on Arguably two of the finest fighters built during the course of World War II, the Me 262 and P-51 Mustang heralded new dawns in aircraft performance. he shot down a Soviet MIG jet. P-51 Mustang vs. Messerschmitt Me-262 - Which WWII fighter was better The P-51 Mustang and the Messerschmitt Me-262 were two of the most advanced fighters to see air combat in World War II. [ref: P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? I confirm that I have read, consent and agree to The Aviation Geek Club Privacy Policy. What WWII fighter raid did my great-uncle misremember? . Browse other questions tagged, Start here for a quick overview of the site, Detailed answers to any questions you might have, Discuss the workings and policies of this site. ' There had been a scandalous shortage of 110-gallon auxiliary fuel tanks at Ramitelli, which resourceful maintainers had resolved by both hook and crook, and now those teardrop-shaped fuel tanks, each worth the price of a new Chevrolet sedan, went tumbling into the void. The ratio's for Mustangs was ~ 10.7:1, the P-47's ~ 7.5:1 and the P-38's were ~ 2.6:1. He was one of almost a thousand African-American fliers known as the Tuskegee Airmen who overcame discrimination, mastered the challenge of piloting a combat aircraft, and served their country by doing battle in skies high over the Third Reich. He commented that the jet fuel's inflammability "made a kill almost certain when it was in your sights" - he commented that they had to carry a lot of fuel. Google Fonts is a service used to display font styles operated by Google Ireland Limited and serves to integrate such content into its pages. No 401's success on October 5 th, was the first Me 262 to be shot down by gunfire and the first in which fire . For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Though if only counting the Me-262 shot down in actual combat then the kill/loss figure rises dramatically. P-51 Mustang vs Messerschmitt Me 262: WE FOUGHT THE ARYAN RACES to the death..WE ARE BRAVE AND STRONG.and if THEY show up . Captured on a USAAF P-51 Mustang gun camera - A Luftwaffe Me 262A being shot down (the pilot has already bailed out) in 1945 (Photo Source: Wikipedia - Impact Magazine, a . Red Tails- P-51 Mustang vs Messerschmitt Me 262. This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. The P-51D Mustang? By clicking Accept all cookies, you agree Stack Exchange can store cookies on your device and disclose information in accordance with our Cookie Policy. section of the enemy aircraft. TO roughly 400 kills possibly to the Me 262 units. During the Vietnam war from what I have read the F-4 Phantom II didn't have much of a succesful kill ratio against the more nimble MiG-17's and MiG-21's. (f-106deltadart.com)] fast jets in air-to-air battles, we knew from our simulated opportunity to fire at the jet in a head-on pass trading gun for I was at 17,000 feet when I broke off the encounter.. the 357th FG and ace Capt Ernest C. Feeb Fiebelkorn of the 20th FG, It depends on what youre looking for. Nowotnys last words, though garbled, An Me 262 appeared out of the cloud and dived vertically into the ground. U.S. Air Force photo. Mustangs believed to have been flown by 1 Lt Edward Buddy Haydon of The P-51 is a purebred fighter, agile and fast. Airplanes armament and equipment. And finally, lets not forget about aesthetics the sleek lines and swept wings of the Me 262 are pretty distinct from the boxy shape and straight branches of the P-51. An innovation it had was electrically-operated control surfaces. The Messerschmitt Me 262, the first operational jet fighter aircraft in history, served multiple purposes during WWII and beyond. Me-262's top speed was reported as 515MPH or 540MPH Force Service in 1950 at the onset of the Korean Conflict. By clicking on "Customise" you can select which profiling cookies to activate. I kept horsing back on the stick and my bullets [ref: History Channel's "Dogfights"] was doing around 350 mph, and the jet was doing 450. "Mr. Yingling is a World War II veteran of the Navy and began his Air But it was designed in an era when piston engines were king. - February 25, 2013, These are Tuskegee Airmen (left to right) 1st Lt. Roscoe C. Brown, 1st Lt. Marcellus G. Smith, and Col. Benjamin O. Davis, Ramitelli, Italy, March 1945. The Messerschmitt Me-262 was the first jet fighter to enter operational service. For a few moments he monitored their progress: The lead ship was in take-off position on @PieterGeerkens agreed, likely statisctically insignificant (it could depend on the number combinations of aircraft that actually engaged the 262, and of those numbers which percentage emerged the more victorious, but even so, these are small numbers so yeah, not much statistical significance could be attached). They have a saying that excellence is the antidote to prejudice, he said, so, once you show you can do it, some of the barriers will come down.. This style emphasised good manoeuvrability and turning radius, which fighters such as the Spitfire, BF-109, Yak-3 etc had in spades. The IL-2? Early Spitfire had superb maneuverability and graceful handling. (E) 2 x 20mm Hispano cannons and 2 x 12.7mm Browning heavy machine guns OR 4 x 7.7mm Browning machine guns in wings. Kulp sustained severe wounds but survived. You are at a gateway to WWII discussion, research, exploration, & analysis. Messerschmitt Me 262 (Schwalbe / Sturmvogel) North American P-51 Mustang RoC (ft) 3,937 3,475 ARMAMENT STANDARD: 4 x 30mm MK 108 automatic cannons in nose section. But theres one area where the P-51 shines: range. Google uses the Personal Data collected to track and examine the use of this site, compile reports on its activities and share them with other services developed by Google. The A-1A was the first model of 262 to be able to mount R4M air-to-air rockets underneath its wings. The enemy aircraft exploded violently, and as I looked back at the two As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. flame come out near the right wing root. but it had important innovations from which it excelled. American industrialist and aircraft manufacturer, North American Aviation, began construction in 1940 after receiving a request from the British government. [ref: History Channel's "Dogfights"]. This title explores the formidable Me 262 and P-51 Mustang, two planes which represented the state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance, and combat capability for their respective air forces. In fact, the Mustang would prove to be the OPTIONAL: External Bomb load of up to 1,200lb. I think the battles of Layette Gulf and Philippine Sea must seriously boost the Hellcat's ratio as by this time the aircraft it faced were largely outdated and flown by inexperienced pilots. Historically, why did the US station their nuclear weapons in Germany for delivery through German pilots? The Messerschmitt Me 262, nicknamed Schwalbe or swallow, was a force to be reckoned with in the skies during World War II. Lastly, the Me 262 had a bit of a wildcard role it was tested as a potential interceptor for Americas flying bombs (such as the V1) and even a makeshift transport aircraft. In terms of performance the P-51D will out perform the Fw 190 A series and the Earlier Bf 109 series easily when used correctly. Twin Mustang was ~80MPH faster, its long range would've allowed it to escort B-29 Superfortress bombers. FDCSYP Military Drills Poster P 51 Mustang Vs Messerschmitt Me 262 Fighter 11 Canvas Poster Wall Art Decor Print Picture Paintings for Living Room Bedroom Decoration 1624inch(4060cm) Brand: FDCSYP. The Me 262 provided them with something they had never had before speed. On August 24, 1944, Sgt. Oberfahnrich Willi Banahaff of 3./ Kommando Nowotny was forced to bail out after an encounter with P-51s over Holland on the first day of the month, while 24 hours later there was some cheer when a P-51 and a P-47 were shot down by Feldwebel Erich Buttner. ", "On November 8, 1950, the then Capt. And the Me-262 would take advantage on their speed instead. they knew they would be completely outnumbered and Over Western Europe there wasn't such a discrepancy in pilot training or aircraft performance even at the end of the war. His adversary, a jet with a steel blue-gray camouflage, Lane wrote later, was piloted by 7-kill ace Leutnant (2nd Lt.) Alfred Ambs. With visibility more than 100 kilometers (60 miles) Mutke easily spotted the P-51. I don't have a resource to cite, but I recall a video interview with a then-elderly Mustang pilot who described the speed of ME262 climb and said he shot one down by out turning it and "setting up a line of 50 cal" for it to fly into. Let's find out! There was black smoke and an explosion.. Top speed of Me-163 was 600MPH. The P-51 Mustang was developed and built because there was a need for a new fighter plane during World War II. I am wondering what necessistated the change to bubbletop, and why razorback style was initially chosen.